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The homosexual double life in Korea

Caption: A scene from the 1999 Korean movie, “Memento Mori”
James Hyams
Written by James Hyams

If secret agents live a double life, then gay and lesbian South Koreans would be some of the best in the world. By weekday many members of the South Korean LGBT community are acting as straight fathers, husbands, students, and heterosexual co-workers, but in their private time they are true to themselves – a member of a homosexual minority.


If secret agents live a double life, then gay and lesbian South Koreans would be some of the best in the world. By weekday many members of the South Korean LGBT community are acting as straight fathers, husbands, students, and heterosexual co-workers, but in their private time they are true to themselves – a member of a homosexual minority.

Andy Rogers has lived in Korea for more than a decade. When he first arrived in Korea he experienced something that rarely happens in the West.

“I met a guy not knowing he was married and texted him only to get abusive texts from his wife who intercepted his messages. I was as surprised as she must have been,” Russell said indicating that she also replied to him. “The gist of it was warning me to leave him alone and stop corrupting him with my evil ways.”

A huge majority of lesbians and gays in South Korea are living double lives, hiding their true identities from their colleagues, friends, and their families.

“I used to talk about my girlfriend as a male and made up stories when people asked about her. I wrote down a fake boyfriend to remember what he likes and what he does, and I felt so stupid and crazy. I’m very tired of lying and pretending. It feels like I am wasting life,” Kim Min-ji said.

Kim’s mother had a very physical reaction when she came out of the closet.

“First she was really shocked and I thought she would die! After that she tried to make me have a boyfriend.”

Kim’s mother avoided discussing her daughter’s sexuality for the last two years but now her mother’s friends try to force her to marry.

“I feel like butcher’s meat which should be sold before the expiry date. I’ve even been told from my parent’s friend that women over age 30 will lose their value, (he used the word ‘goods value 상품가치’) so you should marry ASAP.”

Kim said anyone different from the norm in Korea is ostracized.

“If they don’t pass the ‘normal’ route such as entering elite universities, army service, working for a big company, marriage, children, children’s elite universities, children’s big company again and again, they are seen as losers or weirdos.”

It is the pressure to subscribe to the norm that forces men and women to live these double lives.

LGBT activist Jay Bo has lived and worked between Korea and the U.S. for years.

“You see a lot of situations where Korean men come out to their families and their families ask them when they are getting married to a woman”
“You see a lot of situations where Korean men come out to their families and their families ask them when they are getting married [to a woman],” Jay said.

Latin American Cesar Andres spent six months in the gay scene in South Korea and learned a lot about the challenges faced by homosexuals in Korea.

“The majority of them have double lives. Even some of them married girls and had families due to family pressure,” Cesar said.

Hiding ones sexual orientation in South Korea is the norm.

Cesar said that some Korean men are so good at hiding their homosexuality that their wife will often never know.

“Being gay in South Korea is a reality that is hidden. So if their wife’s don’t know how to figure out when a guy is gay or not, they will never know if their husband is gay,” Cesar said.

He had intimate relations with two gay but married Korean men who had families.

“They told me they were married so I had to be discrete and they were really secretive. By the manner a lot of men entered gay saunas you could see that there were more guys that were hiding.”

The repercussions of “coming out” of the closet for people in South Korea are often grave.

“The sad thing is that for Koreans it is way harder because it can mean getting kicked out of their houses, losing their jobs, and they have no legal protection,” Cesar said.

“They think it is ok if they are treated that way by their family and they don’t really fight for their rights. They kind of accept that reality and try to live their life with secrets and lies.”

Jay said he had been fired in Korea after telling his boss he was gay and he empathises with Koreans who conceal their sexuality.

He noted that those fired due to their sexual orientation often accept another reason given by employers for their dismissal instead of shaming their families for being gay.

“Keeping that reason would be a lot less socially stigmatising than having to come out as gay or lesbian,” Jay explained.

While most young people of all cultures dread telling their parents they are gay, most Koreans have the added aspect of religion to contend with when announcing their sexual orientation.

Korea has one of the highest concentrations of churches per square meter in the world with more than 78,000 churches, roughly four times more than that of convenience stores.

“The entire Christian community must stand up and stop homosexuality”
Hwang Soo-won, president of the Council of Presbyterian Churches in Korea, says homosexuality is the work of the devil to destroy humanity.

“It will be absolutely wrong to encourage homosexuality on the excuse of human rights,“ the pastor told the Kookmin Ilbo. “The entire Christian community must stand up and stop homosexuality.”

Juneyoung Lee is a board member of an affirming church and active member of the LGBT community.

“[Pastors say] the sons and daughters coming out of the closet, that you are not doing your duty as a son or daughter because this is against Confucianistic way on which our society is woven. They pick and choose certain elements of our Korean society and culturally bind it by using the scripture and Confucianistic virtues and pin them on to say why they are against homosexuality.”

Juneyoung recalls the death of his very close gay friend who experienced severe homophobia from his church’s pastor.

“On Christmas Eve he called me and had a handful of sleeping pills. He was calling out for help and wanted to live. His pastor and pastor’s wife were very homophobic. It was the pastor and pastor’s wife’s fault that he died.”

A survey by the Korean Sexual-Minority Culture and Rights Center reveals that 76 percent of young Koreans who identify with a sexual minority have considered suicide and 58 percent have attempted suicide.

Park Joo-won says he had a boyfriend at 15 and wanted to be a good Christian. His pastor and church were also against homosexuality.

“I naturally tried to contain and get rid of the urges toward boys




 and when I was in high school, the church started to bash homosexuality. 


At this point, I felt immense guilt and was disgusted.”

Park said that he has hidden his sexual orientation from his family.

“In my case, if they ever found out, they would bring me to the chief pastor of the church




 so he can sacrifice himself and wash my sins away





,” he said.

“The pastor prays for those who have sinned and the sins of the believers will supposedly be washed away at the cost of the pastor’s suffering.”

Park said there are two ways Korean families try to cure their children of homosexuality.

One is through the church and they have various methods to try to extract homosexuality from an individual. The other is through psychiatric therapy.

Both of these are very traumatic experiences for the confused young person.

“If I came out to my parents I imagine they’d yell at me a lot and start trying to spy on my private life a lot more. They might even send me to live with my grandmother who’s a pastor so she can pray the gay away,” Lee Eun-seo said.

Park underlined that Christian voices in Korea are often the most prevalent and therefore their messages are heard by the majority of the public.

Screen shot 2015-02-07 at 11.41.01 AMA recent study by the Pew Research Center demonstrates that 57 percent of those residing in South Korea believe homosexuality is morally unacceptable whereas 18 percent indicated it is morally acceptable and 21 percent said it was not a moral issue.

There is also a hate group on Facebook titled ‘We hate Korea (Korea Gay)’ which has only 12 members most of which appear to have originated from Muslim majority countries.

Other LGBT critics come from the medical field. Min Seong-gil, honorary professor at Yonsei University College of Medicine in Seoul, said homosexuality is a serious threat to the public’s health.

“In Korea, homosexuals account for roughly 0.1 percent of the population. However, of 522 male AIDS patients that the health ministry identified in 2012, 45 percent of them were gay,” he said in a recent TV appearance on KTV.

The WEF ranks South Korea equal first in the world on the lack of Aids prevalence with less than 0.1 percent of the population being infected.

One activist argues that due to the concealed nature of homosexuality in Korea, they are not given adequate education around preventing STDs.

CAPTION: Two asian ladies in love. Courtesy of Sabrina's Stach https://www.flickr.com/photos/cloud10/59911435/ (Creative Commons Licence 2.0)

CAPTION: Two asian ladies in love. Courtesy of Sabrina’s Stash (Creative Commons Licence 2.0)

Of the dozen sources, ten are frightened to “come out” to their parents as they feel they will be rejected by their family, friends, co-workers and ultimately society.

This fear has lead to the migration of members of the LGBT community to foreign countries where they do not have to hide their sexuality.

“I’ve always told my parents that I don’t want to get married, but they want me to and they want grandkids to coo over. It’s actually partly why I want to live in America when I become an adult because that way they can’t nag me about getting married or something,” Lee Eun-seo said.

“It’s not a coincidence that many other people from my school who I know to be LGBT (we have a secret Facebook group) are preparing to go to American universities.”

Choi Kyung-hee said she is dreaming of leaving Korea to Europe.

“I was there last year and it was heaven when they accepted me as normal, as a lesbian.”

Choi broke up with her European girlfriend last year after a seven year relationship.

“I am still depressed because I believed she was my destiny and if we were man and woman, probably we could marry and still live together.”

Andy Rogers has been married in a civil union to his husband of eight years.

“We live together here but cannot openly display our relationship as he is afraid to come out to his family and friends,” he said.

“We lived together for five years in Australia and in front of my friends he was out. 




With his Korean friends, he was still closeted




.”

Rogers realizes that living a double life gets very hard sometimes.

“I’ve even suggested he marry [a girl] if it gets too much for him,” he added.

Photo by See-ming Lee 李思明 www.SeemingLee.com (Creative Commons Licence 2.0) Photo cropped

Photo by See-ming Lee 李思明 www.SeemingLee.com (Creative Commons Licence 2.0) Photo cropped

Andy said that many Asian guys flee their countries so they do not have to hide their sexuality or marry a girl due to societal pressure.

Some of these people are extremely educated and include specialist physicians and engineers.

Lee Yoon-seo said she personally would not mind not being legally married to her partner.

“If it turns out years later that I do, I’m always open to the prospect of leaving the country and settling in America which is an irresponsible thing to do, evading pressure instead of fighting it,” she said.

“But if the pursuit of my own happiness takes me that far, I see little reason to resist.”

The Korean government recently refused an application for an LGBT group to register as a non-profit organization.

Until homosexuality is accepted in South Korea, the LGBT community will remain hidden and many talented young people will continue to relocate overseas where they do not need to hide their identity and live a double life.

Links:

http://www.pewglobal.org/2014/04/15/global-morality/
https://www.facebook.com/groups/218366158192376/

KO Gay flag

About the author

James Hyams

James Hyams

James Hyams juggles several careers including being a journalist and a social worker. James has an avid interest in 'telling it as it is', exposing matters of public interest, and reviving investigative journalism in the new digital era. Testimony to this is his thesis titled: “U.S. Government secrecy and the withering watchdog: Is WikiLeaks the answer?”

  • smithington

    What is it with you and the unnecessary nudity in news articles? Between the incompetency as a reporter, and a writer, look at the flesh on your own time. From tits to schlongs and monkeys hammering on the keyboard the Korea Observer has it all!

    Feel free to use that.

    • dr2050

      you’re such a buzzkill. Stop polluting the comments section with your angry character. Anyone that reads these articles can decide by themselves if they like it or not. We don’t need your poison. Just digest it yourself in your own head please. I think the nudity photos match well the article and I appreciate that the author has used them. Who calls those photos “flesh” anyway? learn some proper English…

      • smithington

        If they’d stop producing such utter garbage, there would be nothing to complain about. The comments section is here to discuss the articles and that’s what I’m doing, sorry if I”m not handing out enough cuddles and reach arounds for your liking, but those earned.

      • On the never ending poster

        Look at his reply to you below……exactly which conditional is he teenager-on-a-first-date-blushingly groping for in that opening sentence? And at the end just tailing off with ‘but those earned’ and doesn’t bother with an object. Since he posts so much one might think his English would be improving, if only through all the practice. Oh, and in another thread he threatened to ‘teach’ someone. Sweet, holy lack of self-awareness……..

  • billy bob

    Korea is not Sodom. All Sodomites in S Korea are imported. Go home and mess up your own damned countries. Dont mess with S Korea. 🙂

    • Chris Low

      Sodomy also includes heterosexual people.

      • Ben Arnold

        And animals…

    • Sbn Aholic Annyeong

      Such an ignorant we got here…

    • Kia Avila

      People with your mind set are the ones dooming your very potencial full country. Shame.

      • Ben Arnold

        Many countries are doomed; homosexuality is very prevalent in Thailand, America, the Philippines, and many other countries. But it’s not necessarily dooming them to destruction or anything. To say that homosexuality is the worst sin goes contrary to the Bible’s teachings. The story about the city of Sodom didn’t say that homosexuality was the cause for that city’s destruction (however it might be an indicator that other sins are prevalent also; especially if everybody is gay would be an indicator that there’s a break down of family and schools and government and churches). Many other factors determine the success or demise of a nation; not homosexuality (however it may be an indicator that those other factors are present already). The most gay friendly countries (less persecution) are Germany, Spain, Canada, the Czech Republic, Australia, France, United Kingdom, Malta, Argentina, and the Philippines… did I already mention the Philippines? I’ll mention it just one more time. The Netherlands was the first country to legalize gay marriage. Belgium followed suit. South Africa became the first country in Africa to legalize gay marriage. Norway passed laws allowing gay couples to adopt children. Even Iceland has legalized gay marriage. Argentina was the first country in South America to legalize gay marriage. Denmark was the first to officially recognize gay “domestic partners”. The worst places to live if you’re gay is Russia, and most formerly or currently soviet nations. For example Azerbaijan and Lithuania. In many countries a gay person will be killed. For example many Middle East countries. When I was in Brazil there were several gay persons doused with gasoline and lit on fire in the middle of the street while the entire neighborhood cheered, sang, and danced. Ukraine, Monaco, Turkey, Armenia, Poland are all considered less friendly towards gay people. Even Italy scored high as having laws that are unfriendly towards gay people. It’s a shame that humans persecute humans when they should show only love towards each other. Countries that are very focused on military strength such as Russia, Gambia in Africa, and South Korea, and North Korea are more strict about morality because they feel that it directly affects the strength of a nation. Those would be bad places for a gay person to live, possibly even dangerous. Places where military strength is decreasing or is less of a focus such as the USA you might even find homosexuality in the military (the former US Army Secretary and several other top officers even a female General publicly announced that they’re openly gay, many have in fact). While I’m against homosexuality my respect and caring for all humans isn’t diminished by a person’s actions, preference, or outcome. All humans deserve rights, freedom, dignity, protection, and so on.

    • Ben Arnold

      Uhhh, actually, Billy Bob, all of my current gay/lesbian friends are Koreans, Americans, Chinese, Filipinos, Africans, Russians etc and so you see it has nothing to do with nationality but rather humanity as a whole. If you’re looking for a date with another man I can certainly hook you up and you can pick any nationality.

      • Yani Philippines

        i think i love you.. :-).. thanks for the respect @disqus_GGb4elfRoN:disqus it is very much appreciated..

  • Sbn Aholic Annyeong

    Great article! Congrats! So sad SK been like this…

  • Ben Arnold

    The reality is that most men are gay by nature. But they just need to deal with it, just like a straight man who lusts after women in spite that he’s married to a woman. I’ll agree with everything in this article in spite of my desire that everyone create a family, have children, and raise a mighty future generation rather than focusing on themselves and their own sexual desires. Korean men suffer for so many reasons. And women do to. Whether gay or not. And it’s nice that we live in a world where the truth can come out, people can work on it, try to make it healthier. For example, Hillary Clinton knows her husband is a rapist, and Bill Clinton knows his wife is gay, but look how much they respect, support, and help each other! And genuinely seem to love each other, and have a great daughter. Elton John has a husband, but he also was once married to a woman. And I respect him for both marriages and that he’s raising a child. Of course I’m hoping that they’re not unduly influencing their child to pursue a course that’s contrary to what the child would’ve pursued had his parents not been gay. I’m certain Elton John is open minded and will try to provide both perspectives to his child and allow total freedom as well as provide an informed environment, not one-sided. There’s no reason for people to be afraid of their brothers and sisters who are gay. And all deserve rights, freedom, respect, safety, happiness, etc. I’m doubly proud of straight men who don’t cheat on their wives and gay men who don’t cheat on their wives. But I’m not going to demand anything of people. Joseph Smith was once asked how he controlled the Mormon people so well. Especially when he was running for U.S. President and was the mayor of the city of Nauvoo which was so beautiful and well designed that delegates and celebrities from around the world came to see it and even was a meeting area for the still existing Native Indian tribes of the Far West not yet a part of the U.S. who would come and counsel with Joseph Smith concerning their affairs with the U.S. Government. His answer to those who asked how he controlled the Mormon people so well, a group which went on to establish the U.S. state of Utah and now has more members outside of the U.S. than inside, and even boasted hosting JFK who spoke for 2 hours in the Mormon Tabernacle in SLC, Utah during his campaign for President and was the last U.S. President to ever receive an endorsement from the Mormon’s leaders, is as profound as it is Biblical. I’ll tell you in a moment what he said exactly. Yes, the Mormons are a very proud and close knit bunch. People from every walk of life, whether in politics in most nations around the world, or Hollywood, or famous composers or athletes, you’ll find a Mormon among them. They’re everywhere. When establishing BYU in Jerusalem the President of Israel at that time stated that if ever the Jews were ever to reconcile with Christianity it’d be by the intermediary support of the Mormons because of how well the Mormons understand the Bible and the Jewish religion. In fact, most Christian churches have no idea what a Temple is for, and couldn’t even begin to describe the purpose of the various chambers of Solomon’s temple and the baptismal font in front of the Temple which the Apostle Paul described as being for baptizing the dead. Here are Joseph Smith’s words: “I simply teach them correct doctrines and let them govern themselves.” And so I too, learning from his and many other great men’s examples, don’t judge other men, I don’t try to force other people, as if they’re a slave, or an animal, no. Humans are capable of going the right way, without being forced, because of how large their brain is. And humans have a conscience, and understanding of morality, and the consequences that follow. They’re able to choose. It’s a glorious thing. And people have that right. They will choose, they will govern themselves, and the consequences follow. Straight people are under just as much condemnation as gay people. There really is no distinction between them. Because ultimately it has nothing to do with preference, but rather morality. It’s about sex. A straight person who suddenly lunges out and kisses a woman without consent is just as guilty and deserving of punishment as a gay person who lunges out and kisses a person of the same gender without consent. If there’s consent, then who are we to judge, so long as they didn’t violate any other laws or customs such as respecting the rights of the public to not have to witness such a thing in public. The problem is, that if a gay person does something that reveals they’re gay, for example they never court the opposite sex, there are many ways it can be discovered, harmlessly, even by accidental admission, etc but that person suddenly gets fired, or beaten, or insulted, or ostracized, and so on. This is definitely denying them their rights as a human being. What if a person isn’t gay but still refuses to marry a woman and simply has no sexual preference at all and feels that he or she would make a terrible spouse and a terrible parent. Should that person also be fired, beaten, insulted, ostracized and so on? No! Absolutely not! That’s the problem. And anyone who is against gays, created this problem themselves by being abusive and refusing these rights to other people. Why did women stand up and join the Women’s Movement? Because of abusive husbands, politicians, and so on. Now, women won’t get married, are taking all the jobs, are demanded excessive income even beyond what a man would get, want to be in the Navy SEALS and combat forces, and the list goes on and on how women now are going way beyond that line, way beyond that balance of normalcy and sanity. Because the men were abusive, and ignorant, and denied women their rights. Now, people have denied gay people their rights. And what do you get? Gay marriage. And soon it’ll be group marriage. And soon children while at fragile ages will be taught in a way that convinces and trains them to also be gay in all the public schools until finally every last male is gay. And the human race dies. That’s what happens when a few self righteous tyrants abuse women and gay people. Who is more guilty of destroying humanity, the gay people, the women, or these tyrants? Women and gay people are simply standing up for their God given rights, and are winning. Who can complain about that? Who can say they’re wrong? Even God is a fair judge and will concur that a child of God standing up for their own rights, human dignity, protection, freedom, is a righteous and noble endeavor! Unfortunately in some cases it certainly has gone too far, beyond discernible sanity, because now they not only want their cake but everybody else cake too! Now they’re going to make all the children gay as well. Children are much easier to condition than prisoners of war. China isn’t the only entity capable of brainwashing a human. Children are brain washed everyday, by McDonald’s, and Coca-Cola, and so on. It’s poetic justice that now the tables are turned, and the whole world is going to be flipped upside down. Because when one person gets abused, and denied their rights, the whole world suffers and will be held to blame!

    • Kia Avila

      Using the conservation of the species as a excuse for gay paranoia is unacceptable. Love, respect and understanding for our fellow human beings is what keeps the balance, Not religious pointless verbatim.

      • Ben Arnold

        I agree. There’s no excuse for gay paranoia. I’d never make an excuse for it. There are however always reasons for everything. Ignoring them, may lead you to never overcoming anything at all. If we simply say, “It’s dark” and never try to find a way to change that, it’ll always be dark. Perhaps in spite of having fire, lights, etc we still don’t know why it’s dark. And yet have overcome it. And so, I’m not saying that the act of discovering the reason, is in of itself the road to a solution. However, in many situations it is the only way to a solution. For example, “the boat is filling with water” and we don’t know why. We can bail water. We can abandon ship. And perhaps even if we knew why the boat was filling with water, we still wouldn’t be able to fix the problem. Sometimes there’s no solution. Is gay paranoia a problem? Does it need fixed? You proposed the solution, while proclaiming proudly your disregard for any attempt to understand the opposition, the obstacles, the factors, and anything else related to the issue. Is blindness really a virtue? You mention three virtues but also accept blindness. And that’s fine. Most people live life perfectly happy in the safety of bliss. The definition of bliss is a person who intentionally ignores whats around them for the sake of avoiding being disappointed, frightened or killed by it. As we all know, just because you don’t look, doesn’t mean the tiger isn’t going to eat you. So many beautiful photos have been taken of swimmers in tropical destinations, the majority of which only show people’s heads or upper body as they swim merrily soaking in paradise. The gay community however is full aware of the sharks surrounding them and are trying to get rid of the sharks, or somehow prevent the sharks from having any affect on the life of the gay person. In many nations, gay people are still hunted down, doused with gasoline, and set ablaze. It’s horrific, the most profound display of a human’s contrary-potential. Any species that makes itself go extinct, that’s quite contrary to the whole purpose behind the word: Potential. And so I say it’s a contrary-potential. Some will say that if everyone in the world became gay, we’d stop reproducing, and then become extinct. Yes, that would be contrary-potential. However, we both know that not everyone in the world is going to want to be gay, since that’s decided by our genes, attraction comes from our DNA, not from what we learn in school, not even brainwashing can change how we feel deep down inside, in our chemical sensors. And, from history we can see that people can make themselves go extinct much quicker and truly, through violence, something we call ethnic cleansing and so on. Because haven’t we witnessed entire races, entire species being eradicated by violence? Using guns, chemicals, in fact even nature can destroy us! We don’t need to worry about the gay gene wiping us out. And so, that’s why I say the conservation of the species does depend on how we act, behave, treat each other, etc. Wars have been started for far less than a person’s feelings, or sexual preference, and so on. In fact, usually wars are in fact started over a person’s sexual preference but aside from there being greater reasons wars have been started there have also been far lesser reasons, I’ll let you Google them, and I’ll also mention the U.S. Civil War which the President of the time blamed on the book, “Uncle Tom’s Cabin” or rather slavery. Isn’t anti-gay laws very similar to slavery? What if the laws prevented heterosexual marriage? I’ve lived in countries where it’s nearly impossible to get married, even for heterosexuals, because of corruption (In Brazil nearly 80% of the population cannot afford the fee/bribe that’s required by the government official before he will sanction the marriage; just another reason not to attend the deathtrap known as RIO Olympics ’16 and thank God most Russians won’t be attending because if any of them die it could spark another war). War, is definitely a precursor to the possibility of humanity’s extinction. Whether you believe in the Bible or not. Conservation of the species might not be important to you, while you try to live in a world of bliss that unfortunately doesn’t exist, the rest of us however live in a world known as reality where yes we’d like to survive as a species and so it is an acceptable reason. Your love, respect, and understanding might be maintaining balance in your part of the world but for most humans those are traits that simply are not employed by the average person unfortunately, perhaps in your world, but not on this planet. Which is why there is no balance. But because you prefer bliss, you won’t look, there’s no tiger, there’s no reasons, there’s simply no balance and who cares about the reason, right? Or what did you call reason? Oh, an excuse. Well, lets not confuse words. In an era of political correctness when words that are correct are supplanted by words of bliss that keep the world happy in its blindness, we should always classify everything as an excuse. It’s politically correct. Why is the sun blowing up? Oh, it’s just another excuse. Nothing to worry about. Why are gays being killed? Oh, it’s just another excuse. Nothing to worry about. Lets love, understand, and live in bliss. Here’s how you should be using the word excuse: Racism is just an excuse for people to subject their fellow human to slavery. Prejudice against gays is just an excuse for people to subject their fellow human to religion. As you’d classify religion just another ridiculous law. So be it! These laws were written by people who wanted power over the people. Power over criminals. Power over innocent people. Power over all people. Gay, white, etc. There are even laws that control the animals. There are even laws saying where a tree can and cannot be planted. And so, yes, there are even laws that control the plants. There are laws that are sparing the whales, sparing the trees, trying to keep certain species from becoming extinct. Those laws are probably not important to you. But yes I’d agree that there are evil laws too. Laws that protect people, or as you call it love, respect, understanding are great laws and a great place to start. I agree with you that would be a better world and a solution to not only hate against gay people but also a solution to all the problems on this planet. That’s why I agree with you. That’s why I say that you’re right. And I would never justify, nor make an excuse for, gay paranoia. My words must’ve misconceived my true sentiments. I’m totally in agreement with you. Even to preserve humanity, is not a good enough justification for hurting even just one gay person, one black person, one woman, one human, one animal. It’s like the founding fathers of America said, sacrificing freedom for security is a sure road to slavery. They unfortunately themselves had slaves, several of America’s founding fathers. But they somehow miraculously created the world’s greatest constitution. But as I read it, I realize, for all their wisdom, and so many of them gathered, fighting for many months to create it, and under such great circumstances, I realize how simple it is. Any child could’ve created the U.S. Constitution. It’s us adults who screw everything up and can’t see reality. Religious words are not pointless, however repeating the same ones over and over again so much so that it can be referred to as verbatim is then perhaps pointless, if you already know it, sure, why repeat right? But again, lets not confuse words. Verbatim means it has been repeated, exactly word for word. Implying that you and the whole world has heard it all before, nothing new, just rehashing and re-bashing the same old song. I’m sure you’re referring to the Catholic version of Christianity and its ensuing Protestant version etc. Because few people know anything about the Jewish/Islamic religion and Buddhism or all the Asian world religions and so on. The truth is, most people, even you have probably quoted Jesus a few times, or other great orators who’ve spoken the very words that you spoke, “love, respect, understanding” and even using the worlds “fellow human beings” and even mentioned “balance” as you have. And Jesus for one was very adamant about the fact that religion had become pointless, and verbatim. Many followed him because they were tired of a religion written on stone, cold laws. The ones who followed him were tired of the strict, harsh, authoritarian, slightly even tyrannical laws that pinned the Jews between a rock and a hard place. They wanted what all humans want: Freedom. Many followed him, and soon the whole of Europe was under the influence of Christianity while the Jews were mercilessly slaughtered and scattered to the ends of the planet, their temples found as far away as Japan! Their language the Hebraic tongue discovered to be intertwined in languages all around the world including South America and the Pacific Islands! I don’t know if the rulers of the world today such as those who own the Banks, Hollywood, Wall Street, the Federal Reserve, the Medical and Pharmaceutical Industry, Car industry, Oil industry and so on… whether they truly have Jewish blood in them or not. And whether or not it’s God who has empowered them, who knows. But many humans desire the conservation of the species. However, it’s not worth it, if none of us are free. I love it when a person says they’d rather be dead than to be a slave. That’s the true American spirit. The country today that bares that same name: America, isn’t the same. It’s possessed by demons. Those people who live in America would rather save their own skins, and let others die, rather than stand up for freedom. They’d even go as far as to kill others, enslave others, for the sake of security, and hate, rather than lift even a finger in support of freedom. There is no love, respect, and understanding in America. Perhaps a few hundred million people. But if the American government, a handful of politicians, starts WW3, will it matter if the American people are good people or not? Will the gay movement, or any other movement matter, if everyone is dead? And so, I agree with you, that the argument shouldn’t be over conservation, saving our own lives, or religion, because without love, respect, and understanding we will all become extinct, where nothing then will matter! Love, respect, understanding should be what we’re fighting for. What we’re screaming at our politicians and each other. Whether it means tolerated gays, tolerated races, religion, whatever. Freedom isn’t freedom if humans are not allowed to be gay. Freedom isn’t freedom if we’re not allowed to have everything that everybody else has. Equality. Regardless race, color, etc. And it’s true, that the gay issue is all about sex. Sexual preference. And so, according to the religions, etc it would be a sin, and against morality, etc. Not that the religions are right. Not that morality even exists nor that being its boundaries. But lets for a second call it a sin, and say, okay, it’s a sin. Then what? Should we discriminate against thieves? What about liars? Or people who work on the Sabbath day? Jesus didn’t save anyone who didn’t repent. However, he didn’t go around persecuting the sinner. He said love the sinner! And statistically most of the politicians, police, etc are all gay anyways, they’re just hiding it very well. And so it’s pointless to have such laws and persecution. All people should be free. One thing I like about the Mormons is that they rarely say anything about the issue at all. They just worship Jesus and let everybody else do what everybody else pleases. The only times the Mormons ever spoke up about gay issues was during the marriage debate. They opposed it. But both during and after, even when they lost, you didn’t see them frown, or cry, or get rude, or abusive. They continued their stance that they love gay people too. And that they don’t support violence, or any other hurtful activities towards gay people. They believe in love, respect, and understanding. And more than that, they believe in laws that protect gays, and freedom for gay people. I love listening to their speeches on that issue. The world could learn a lot, not about toleration, but about loving, respecting, and understanding which goes way beyond tolerance. I loved your comment and felt it deserved a lot more than just a thank you! Lets hope the world recognizes that these issues are not “pointless”, we can make a difference, we are setting not only an example, but perhaps because it seems to be the first time, if ever, that the world has ever embraced freedom all together at once, we’re setting the precedence. Not only preservation of the species, but also its culture, individuality, with all its differences, it’s a beautiful thing! Obviously God agrees or else He would’ve destroyed all of us a long time ago. Jesus said it best, not only for the prostitute, but I’m certain he said it also for the gay man, the gay woman, the liar, the thief, even perhaps the murderer, Jesus said to the accusers, to the prosecutors, to the law makers, to the whole world, you who have no sin… cast the first stone. It was the most brilliant defense in court room history, because in that particular situation they themselves were in the very act of trying to prove that Jesus wasn’t God (wasn’t perfect) and Jesus turned it around and basically said, whoever among you is a god, cast the first stone. I’m so tired of the children trying to play god. All of us are the children, none of us are gods, and so it’s equally insane for any of us to try and say that we known anything at all about anything. None of us, in fact, live in reality. But if you’d concede that some things in life are acceptable, are not pointless, then lets stand up and do something about it. Now that’s the rub, now you’re looking around and saying, okay, how. Because if you look around, you’ll realize, you’re one of the few, who believes in love, respect, and understanding. And that’s when you might start hoping that God is real. Because when the haters gather around, who is going to save you? Because when your team, your group, your parade, your party, your nation stands up and tries to make the world a better place, that’s when all throughout history, people learn, that they’re the minority. Whether it’s the Democrats, Republicans, Americans, nobody can change this world, even with love. It has all been tried before. I’m happy that you know the way this world can be better. Perhaps one day, the world will really be that way. I totally agree with you. -Ben Arnold (AnaEzine)

        • Daniel Marques

          The most stupid shit I’ve ever heard. The circunstances of homossexuality and why it happens are unknown. Based on that it is impossible to say that everyone in the world will suddently become gay. That’s not going to happen. Besides, the ectogenesis project and manipulation of spems and eggs can be helpful to avoid extinction even though heterossexuality will never disappear.

          • Ben Arnold

            It’s okay to live in a world of your own making, in your mind, and ignore the world around you. Assuming you know everything, based on… well I’m sure you don’t have any facts or evidence to prove the things that you know because you just, well, know it somehow because you’re a human and humans just know everything. But in reality our history proves that societies become more and more promiscuous and then all the men turn gay, it’s just a fact. There will be “some” heterosexuals as you stated, however we’re talking about the majority, and for example when the U.S. President put an openly gay man into a top White House leadership position over the U.S. Military, that set a precedence that allowed all gays in the military to openly present themselves as gay and begin preaching, pushing, and augmenting homosexuality within the military itself. Abused children often become gay, men in prison often become gay, they’re still openly heterosexual but secretly they now have gay inclinations and the incidence of them abusing their own children and other children are extremely high. And so it spreads, faster than HIV/AIDS and one of the reasons homosexuality spreads so quickly is as you stated “nobody knows why it happens” but they do know “it happens” unlike in your mind’s own world that you’re living in far away from the planet earth. Do people fly like superman in your world? Well, back to reality, the world you’re actually in, the incidence of men being born with an inclination towards homosexuality is much higher than what’s published and do you know why? It’s because until 30 years ago it was literally illegal to be gay in most countries, even first world countries. Today it’s still illegal in many, many countries. And it’s “defacto” law in almost all countries. In the US/UK/EU it’s now legal however you can still lose your job and be prevented in finding a new job, end up divorced, lose your children, be ostracized from your family tree and community, and be persecuted in many, many ways. These are facts. Historically, medically, scientifically proven even in the courts, by intense research and investigation that has been ongoing for hundreds of years and today advanced by modern science and technology and openness of the masses and government and institutions that now allow such studies and publicity. When it was suddenly okay to be gay, guess how many university professors, leaders, and teachers of all other type education institutions came out of the closet and began preaching, pushing, and augmenting homosexuality within the education system itself? Their own testimonies, expert research, the published findings are all in the public arena for you to find with just one click of the mouse. When you’re playing video games the rest of the world is outside at real jobs, real places, driving down real streets, interacting with real people, and the news it constantly being presented, real journalists are everywhere collecting the news, there are hundreds of networks and TV stations and radio and newspapers and magazines and classes and sources of information all around us that you could be consuming if you’d get off your game and live life. Also, take some history classes. Rome’s end and fall is well documented. Spain’s end and fall is well documented. France’s end and fall is well documented. Holland’s end and fall is well documented. England’s end and fall is well documented. Those Kingdoms don’t rule the world anymore. Alexander the Great ruled the world for only 2 years. Asia is a whole other study that produces the exact same results. Kingdoms that prosper for a long time slide into promiscuity, then homosexuality becomes prevalent, and then the Kingdom collapses. The point I’m making and that you need to remember is that the homosexuality was already there, embedded in each human. The Kingdom didn’t just all of a sudden become gay, what happened that flipped the switch is that it suddenly became acceptable and furthermore promoted. If you study the effects of homosexuality itself upon the host and its influence on those around that host, you’ll discover something the homosexual community fights violently to keep a secret, and that’s the fact that public figures who are in a gay marriage and raising adopted children and the ones you see on TV are in fact not only extremely rare but basically non-existent. Some could argue it’s the “hood” syndrome where a certain type of person or people are forced into isolation and certain walks of life by the persecution and laws against them. That could easily be argued that if society was more accepting, that a gay person would have a much more successful life and relationships. But as is, now, even with it being accepted and openly promoted even by the military, by the schools, by the government, the number of gay marriages that are prospering are still being studied, the statistics are not entirely in yet, because as I said and as you can discover on your own anywhere you go to any source you choose this homosexuality in society is expanding exponentially and any research concluded and published will be outdated the very next day. You get to witness now the very thing I’m telling you and everyone in the above articles and comments that I’ve made, the very thing I’m telling you, you get to witness it yourselves as it unfolds and once again becomes a chapter in history for yet another Kingdom and is proven yet again, after already being proven a hundred times before by a hundred other Kingdoms, that it’s true and I’m right. Not because I’m human, or genius, or god, or superman, or just born with all the answers and knowledge in my head, but because I study and learn from history, pay attention to the news and what I see around me on the streets and in the work place and people’s homes and government halls and military and so on. I’m an active participant in the public and private world around me and am a socialite who mingles with humans from every walk of life and echelon and am a scientist, journalist, publisher, teacher, student, soldier, politician, lawyer, psychologist, doctor, and so on. I’m not a gamer hiding in the basement scared to talk to a stranger on the street or even my neighbors and relatives! You need to get out into the open, the real world, breath in some fresh air, and go back to college, be social, get involved in politics, write some history books, publish your own magazine, become famous. Go out there and get to know the people of your world. And then, when you see them sliding towards promiscuity to the point that it’s even promoted by the very governments, schools, and institutions that holds the fabric of society together, please let everyone know. And please remind them that every other society where that happened, once they reached the point of open promotion by the government, that Kingdom or nation’s decline and collapse was very rapid. It’s a well researched cycle. Homosexuality is well researched. The reasons why normal people stand up and call out the government on flaws and issues whereas a person who is not normal who is having an affair or has other secrets to hide that go beyond just the basic sin doesn’t stand up and doesn’t call out the government on flaws and issues is a well documented syndrome. People who are right, stand up more than those who are wrong. Because when you’re wrong, it eventually shows, and you’re the last person who wants to be exposed as wrong. When you’re right, and it’s discovered that you’re right, you’ll probably be the first person to stand up and be happy about that fact, and publicize it. Nobody wants to publicize their own mistakes. And while you can trust Jesus Christ to watch your back, and have your best interest in his heart, you can also trust a murderer such as a politician who puts his/her own interest in their heart ahead of yours and everybody else to be entirely likely to stab you in the back when it best serves their own interest and betray you. That’s why evil always fails. It’s self defeating. Those who worship Satan do it because they want His assistance, His approval, His power. And He does assist them, He does approve of their every misdeed and crime and advance in position and office and status and power, and He does give them His power. But if they stop going in the same direction as His agenda, stop benefiting Him, He will abandon them in a heart beat. Jesus Christ will fight for you, beg you, stay there for as long as possible, and even allow you to return after, and will even come back later and beg you again. He never abandons anyone, is always there for you, even after King David committed the unpardonable sin of murder, God was there for King David and gave King David so many blessings. Satan on the other hand will leave and never come back. And will even be on the side of your enemies if that supports His own agendas. God loves homosexuals because they are His children. That’s the difference between Satan and God. When somebody persecutes homosexuals, they’re obviously not a part of God’s agenda. But be careful what you believe when gay persons are trying to educate you on the facts. Often, after coming out of the room with God, who gave them nothing but jobs, riches, and everything, they tell the world that God betrayed and abandoned and is against them. And then they did everything in their power to align with Satan and destroy God and destroy society and the planet. When you speak to the leaders of the gay movements, occasionally they’re confess, and have done so on public TV, in interviews, even in their own books, that their ultimate goal is to destroy society and make everybody bisexual. And that they don’t even care about marriage. And want everybody in an open relationship, not marriage. And so, be careful where you’re getting your facts, go with the consistently true sources of truth which is: “history” and what’s actually occurring, not just what’s people are saying, but what you actually see happening with your own eyes. And so, ask yourself this, as you look around, is homosexuality decreasing? Then you know I’m right. Because it’s expanding exponentially, literally exploding, as nearly one in every 5 persons everywhere you look is openly gay and now teaching homosexuality to the children of society in the schools and so how long until 100% of those children are practicing homosexuals? How long did it take for Germany to turn 100% of their children into Nazi’s? And how long did it take for them after the war to make their children not Nazi’s? Years? Months? Days? Hours?

          • Daniel Marques

            This is a personal opinion which is not backed by any data. That bullshit of gay acceptance in Ancient Roman Empire and Greek society is fake. gay people don’t even make 10% of America’s society and yet you bring that shit which would make any person who’s graduated in history cringe! Even in countries like Iran, Saudi Arabia where homossexuality is punishable by death and yet THERE ARE GAYS THERE. How come? Maybe this is a natural phenomenon, nature’s response to overpopulation. Truth is gay people are gay and won’t become hetero. Everything has been done “to correct” gays from lobotomy to shock therapy, from forced sex to hormone treatment. EVERYTHING was done and yet people remained gay. Can’t you see the reality of how things are? Is it too hard to notice? Even in nature dolphins remains partners for life with animals of the same gender in more than 50%(mating season is when they get in hetero relations) and the same applies for penguins(in a lesser degree). People like you, unfortunately, lose the reasoning. Pity…

          • Ben Arnold

            Well Daniel Marques you are not presenting any data to back up your claims. Nor did you prove that you ever sat through a history class. Public school doesn’t count. Gay people don’t make up 10% of the national population? Which country are talking about? You need to do a little more research before spouting off your emotional baseless tirade. I agreed in my comments with half of what you just now said, concerning gays being born that way, unchangeable, etc etc. You should read a person’s statements before you try commenting on them. We agree on some points. As you can clearly see in my statements up above. Read first, before blindly commenting on it, do a little research if you don’t know the subject. Dolphins, monkeys, they’re all so sporadic in their behavior and there are many different species of dolphin, monkey, etc and their behavior is different from one species of dolphin to another species of dolphin. You’re right in saying that’s exactly how humans are as well. Each individual is as different as a different species when it comes to behavior. However, the differences end at some point. There are not an infinite number of different behaviors. They can be clearly pinpointed and studied at length otherwise what would be the point of psychology. Billions of dollars and hundreds of years has been spent on studying these things, and so contrary to your claim there is historical data and a plethora of other types of data proving or supporting yours and my claims. I’m not here to give you that. You’re capable of doing research, I’m certain of it, try a little. I’m simply regurgitating the headlines of that research so that you have a lead to follow. For those who don’t already know these truths. And I’m not attacking you or gays or anyone. So you can hang up your potty mouth. I swear sometimes also, especially when angry, so I’m not saying you’re a bad person, or idiot, but yes we should try and work on our potty mouths. I’m obviously not any better than you. However, I have done the research because gay issues affects our world that we live in and I’m not the kind of person who sits back and lets the world run him over. You and I can make a difference in this world. Your words, half right, are powerful. Thank you again, this second time, for your words. With truth, facts, a dose of reality, we can then tackle the issues effectively. Living in a false reality, and using lies, and ignorance, we’ll step in the wrong places as we walk through this life of mine fields. You should take life more seriously and actually study Rome’s history. And all nation’s history. It tells you where humanity is headed and shows you that there are things you can do about it. Good luck, and don’t pity those who are happy and successful like me. Pity those who are angry, and bitter, and have no hope. Your words had powerful reasoning. Kudos. But if you couldn’t see the powerful reasoning in mine, what good are yours? A one sided conversation does no good. Some gays to become heterosexual. Just as many heterosexuals become gay. But most are already born that way. Some leading experts have said that all men are born gay. And that life and choices then decides the ultimate outcome of that person’s path. Sexuality increases and decreases the size of certain parts of the brain. Like a muscle. Those studies then hypothesized that perhaps a person’s heterosexual or gay desires could be therefor developed like a body builder develops his/her muscles or anyone develops their skills, hobbies, and so on. Can a person develop taste, and desires? Or do these desires and tastes need to be previously inborn? An acquired taste is impossible then? Only an inborn taste is possible? It’s all interesting to debate. If you say gays are born gay, then why do you suppose there are only 10% in the nation? When most gays are probably still in the closet and fiercely denying that they’re gay. And I know many gays who live heterosexual lives, some of who are honest about their gay leaning, but still continue to have a happy life as a heterosexual. Others live miserable lives as heterosexuals. Heaven forbid any are forced! But yes, in the paste, and I’m sure even today in certain parts of the world that still goes on. Terrible indeed. Don’t pity me, I’m happy, piety them! But I don’t pity them because I know their abusers will be punished in the end by a just God who loves all of His children not just the straight ones. Have you ever noticed that the most vile and evil people on this planet live the longest? How merciful and tolerable our God is! As He allows us to abuse one another, hate each other, start wars, and practice all manner of evil against one another. It’s horrific indeed. Thank God when it’s finally all over. I’m not gay but I can respect and care about those who are gay. Just as I
            know there are many of my gay friend who do respect and care about me. You and I can disagree and yet still have respect for each other. But as is and was, Daniel Marques, I agree with some of your points. Have a nice day. P.S.- In the piece I wrote up above that you were commenting on… I didn’t just use Rome as a case in study but a more recent nation and occurrence: The rise to power of Nazism which was only 70 or so years ago and exhaustively researched and published for all to read and learn. The fact is, and the theme that I’ve been carrying all throughout each of my several comments I’ve made concerning the article on which we should be commenting, that homosexuality is just an indicator that certain protections in society have broken down which were intended to keep children from being exposed to potential brain washing or conditioning that they cannot overcome which might result in negative outcomes, even societal decay and demise. In the case of Nazism the youth were sent to the front lines at the age of 8 and some even younger but mostly around the ages of 10 up to 14 and mostly all died at the hands of the oncoming Russian invasion that prevailed on that same day and the few days preceding it when Russia conquered Germany and captured Berlin. Did those children need to go to the front lines? Was it necessary, after all the Germans realized all was lost and that Hitler had already vanished, and Russians were at the gates, was it really necessary at that moment to mobilize the children and send the children to their deaths? Of course not! However, a typical child would’ve been too frightened to pick up a gun, and march forward into a firefight. And so why did they? Why did they obey so perfectly? Why did their parents allow it? Why did the German society allow it? Are Germans bad? Of course not! Are Germans different from all other humans? Of course not! It’s because of brain washing or conditions, brought on by propaganda and other factors of influence. It’s a common study, among marketers, military, government, and so on. How do you control a population? How do you protect a population from being controlled by negative influences? How do you preserve a population’s integrity and prosperity and peace? These are common studies. When children at the age of 6 are being forcefully told that they’re gay… and taught and shown how to be gay… and encouraged to get permanent gender changing surgery at the age of 6 can you really say that those children had any chance to decide for themselves? At the age of 6 can a child really be capable of making the right decisions for themselves? At an age when they’re still trying to run into the street in front of moving cars, jumping off bridges, stabbing themselves or others with their toys, crying and screaming at the store for cookies and ice cream, telling strangers where they live, and running away from home in the middle of the night with not warm clothes on and not knowing where they’re going… these little ones are seriously considered capable of choosing what’s best for them? And furthermore they’re not choosing, they’re being told, they’re being taught, they’re being manipulated, they’re being pushed down a path that when they’re older they will realize was not of their own choosing. Just like children who are raped, often don’t know it was rape, or that it was wrong, until they’re older when suddenly they say, “oh.” And then of course it’s too late to go back and change things. Now they’re victims. When all of the children are being raised that way… it’s an indicator that society has lost its ability to defend itself from its government etc. And it’s only a matter of months before such a nation is destroyed by its enemies. Because there’s no way that such a population can produce reliable armies, and infrastructure, and leadership… Nazi Germany is a great example of how a break down in freedoms, freedom of expression, can result in a break down in the military, defenses, health, strength, growth, progress, etc of a nation and world. It didn’t reveal a problem in Germans. It didn’t reveal a problem in that type of government. It revealed a problem in the human code, genetic makeup, DNA, and nature. The fact that when we do certain things we inevitably get certain results. It’s not a big bang theory type scenario. Where we just sit there and wait for things to happen and everything works out just fine. No, there are very real decisions, actions, and results. Even inaction results in an outcome that came because of that decision to not act. Everything is predicated upon something and an outcome based on something. May God help us to make the right choices so that everyone ends up having happy lives. All humans are equal and deserve a great life.

  • Robert Uy

    Sad to say Korean church leaders are ignorant of the fact that homosexuality isn’t a choice but a situation beyond anyone’s control. Because if it had been then perhaps all if not most of gay people would have chosen to be either a straight guy or girl. After all getting bullied, belittled or hated for something you don’t get to choose to be is more than enough reason for them to denounce their borne identity. What’s worth condemning though is the sexual acts consummated by two same gender such as sodomy. In the context of the Bible which I suppose a lot of South Koreans base their faith on, sexual relationship between two men is utterly prohibited. Although this commandment may prove to many to be difficult to follow, there are biblical accounts that during the time of the apostles, there were homosexuals who subjected themselves to baptism after believing and receiving Christ’s doctrines including that which denounces homosexual acts. In essence, being gay in the Bible means passing off the liberty to be romantically tied to the same gender and just living a single life and at the same time finding contentment in it. Reward of unparalleled scope awaits those who keep Christ’s commandments including gay people who bridle themselves from indulging in carnal desires.

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